Hanover PA Mural

<kj> A rough idea of what I’d like is for the ceiling to look like an early evening sky (not a dark night sky but sort of twilight). Superimposed on the sky, but in the plane of the ceiling, I’d like a golden arc cutting across the room with the compass points on it, something reminiscent of an ancient astrolabe or something. Maybe part of a star chart also. The illusion would be sort of as if the ceiling were glass with an old star map painted on and the evening sky visible above it.

'Octagon'

<jvp> The ceiling plan has this octagonal section (in the 'turret' wing, I assume). I'm interested (if you are) in doing some designs that segregate that feature from the rest of the ceiling, with some distinguishing theme or approach. For example, to 'complete' the octagon ~into~ the room. Perhaps the main room would have a skylight -- in a relatively simply fashion -- much as you've described; but the octagonal section would look like an interior dome. Perhaps the 'astrolabe' object hangs inside this dome. Perhaps the dome has keyhole windows that reveal more different aspects of the cosmos. A wizard's abode.

<kj> I like the Octagon section idea as this lends itself to many design possibilities for the room itself (in terms of furniture placement, etc) as well as for the ceiling. For example, during Christmas I plan to put the tree in the turret, and it would look very cool if the ceiling helped to define the turret as a separate space from the rest of the room. I really like the ideal of keyhole windows for that area, too.

Complete Experience

<jvp> You mentioned the room is not yet renovated. I am interested (again, if you are) in using the opportunity to do a fairly rare thing: incorporate the design plan at every level of the room's infrastructure -- particularly lighting. My earlier question about crown molding was in this vein as well.

The lighting could simply be designed in concert with the mural,
and designed to enhance it in particular ways.
Lighting fixtures (wall sconces, say) could be selected with
deliberate care and chosen ahead of time as 'part' of the design. Perhaps
then elements of the fixtures could be echoed ~within~ the trompe l'oeil
work as well.
Real 3-D embellishments (molding, etc.) could be blended with
trompe l'oeil ones in surprising ways.

The overall thrust is as follows: a kind of complete 'theatrical' experience. This interests me greatly -- at one extreme such ideas could expand the complexity of the project considerably, but I would be willing to work with them within the existing budget and agreements to the extent possible.

<kj> I'm very open to ideas to incorporate the lighting into the design. I can put on hold any installation of lighting until you actually visit the space, then we can discuss these options in detail. Same goes for crown molding, etc.

Lighting

<kj> Right now there is a chandelier and a rather ill-placed section of track lighting (as you’ll see in the photos.) I’m not averse to having that all removed and some alternative lighting added to accentuate the mural. (I’ve even toyed with the idea of putting up-lights in strategic place in the walls and having no lights at all embedded in the ceiling.)

Depth

<jvp> The ceiling is high enough that we could get a real trompe l’oeil depth effect (i.e., appear to arch up and away from the viewer to some degree). I several ideas about this, particularly in the turret section.

I think the evening sky view will make more sense, and perhaps be more dramatic, if it doesn’t just fill a vast section of ceiling, but is instead latticed with window panes as if the ceiling were an immense skylight. These need not be closely spaced; just a hint of structure in the foreground, allowing the stars to appear distant.

<kj> Depth and interest are my biggest desires. I want it to feel like the painting goes beyond the height of the house. I like the structure idea. I agree that this would help lift the ceiling and give even more depth to the sky beyond.

Cosmos

<jvp> I’ve been thinking about the starfield itself. Of course it must be an actual accurate starfield, not just decorative dots. I think it should include the wash of the milky way across it. But we should think about exactly what view to represent and at what zoom. We could select a smaller arc of sky (than a horizon-to-horizon spread at familiar human scales).

A related idea, would be to take a view of sky from a vantage point other than earth, or at a time other than now. This could be very subtle (e.g., actually represent Earth herself somewhere in the sky, the size of quarter perhaps, as if we are looking back on the way to Mars). Or it could be dramatically otherworldly, with Saturn or Jupiter or some supernova remnant looming quite close, the size of a dinner plate or larger.

<kj> I’m intrigued with all your ideas about the star field. My only concern is that the painting not be too dark. As I wrote earlier, the room gets almost no direct sunlight. It will be used as a dining room/sitting room, and I plan to add a fireplace, so it needn’t be terribly bright, either. Also we need to discuss artificial lighting.
I like the idea of looking back at earth. I also like the supernova idea. It might even be intriguing to explore possibilities to incorporate a way to have a section or two of the sky magnified, allowing you to incorporate two or more of those ideas. This might be interesting as long as we can come up with some way to do it that doesn’t look too surreal. Maybe if there were something embedded in the “ceiling” that magnified the section of sky beyond.

Phoenix

(3/14/05)

<kj> As for the phoenix approach, what we're thinking of is something more of a front on approach. If you remember the emblem of the phoenix on the uniform of the comic book character, that is the basic profile we're looking at, though we want something perhaps midway between that completely stylized emblem and the more realistic phoenix you have drawn.

If you'll forgive bluntness for the sake of clarity, let me tell you what I don't like about the drawing on the site and maybe that will help. I don't like the 3/4 profile angle of the bird. I'm thinking it should be more head on, kind of like a "thunderbird" (see http://www.allzippos.com/product_p/9003045.htm for profile ONLY. I don't want it quite that rudimentary or native American looking, and I'm thinking we want it looking to its left, the viewer's right, mouth open as if shrieking/calling.) I'd like it to be a little less detailed than the one you drew.

Remember, I want it to be able to be cut in glass for the front door, so the individual panes that make up the phoenix should be largish with smooth lines. Not too many sharp curves. The flames in the tail should be more connected and there should be flame/feathers licking from the wings. Wings should be curved up above the head on either side like fiery angel wings. The effect should be more of a bird formed from flame itself rather than of a physical bird. The trick will be to use as few lines/pieces as possible, yet not be too blocky. What you have drawn looks more like it would have to be painted on the glass panes rather than assembled from cut pieces of glass. In the skylight, the glass will all be clear, of course, but when I get it translated for the door in the foyer, the glass will be colored.

(4/16/05)

<kj> I like the more stylized version of the phoenix in this one (over what you had originally), but I was expecting it to be oriented 90 degrees clockwise, for two reasons: 1. It will be easier to translate to a stained glass work for the front door with the more “portrait” dimensions rather than the “landscape” dimensions. 2. It will be more often viewed from the kitchen door, rather than the foyer doorway.

Second, I did say “thunderbird” as a starting point, but I was hoping the wings could be a little more above the head. I’ve actually found a couple of photos of the basic shape I’m looking for which I’ve attached below.

The “phoenix (Rachael).jpg” is probably the better one to adapt. The shape is very close to what I was getting at. The head could be turned to the side, as in your phoenix, but looking to it’s right rather than left would be good as that would make it seem to be gazing at the circle, keeping the two parts of the skylight tied together nicely as you have done in your latest drawing.

Aside from what I’ve said above, I really like the flame motif as you’ve created it. Hopefully you could re-create that in the taller orientation. As for color, well, I have to admit I didn’t see the phoenix very well at all until I looked at the color version. After seeing it there I could see it fine in both examples, but I’m worried about it being lost on viewers. I’d rather not have to point out the phoenix to guests if we can avoid that. Maybe the leading around the phoenix itself can be thicker, or something. I dunno. I think that some slight tinting could work. I really like the sort of “Mondrian” thing you have going in the circle.

Panel Insets

(These will be keyed to a diagram)

1. Shiar Universe

2. Our solar system

3. Sagittarius

4. Orion

5. Monolith schematic and Discovery spaceship from 2001: A Space Odyssey

Other ideas discussed 6/16/05:

- Earth, Air, Water, Fire (Research symbols used in movie Fifth Element)

- Points of the compass

- Other astrological signs or constellations

- Other historical and fictional space exploration vehicles

^ TOP